I'd like to know what constitutes a "regular citizen."

You're a little mis-informed there Mr. Cumming.... The Orleans weren't a "one hit wonder". They had two (2) top 10 hits in 1977, "Dance With Me", and "Still The One".....I guess your sources of information is wrong on the little things, so I wonder if they can be trusted on the big things.......

As a friend said better than I ever could: The current brouhaha over the slim possibility that an undocumented person might benefit from a national health insurance system ignores the reality that access to health care benefits society as a whole.

In short, a successful society demands the good health of its citizens. As has been said in many forums by many others, the undocumented come to the United States to work ? not to cash in on public benefit windfalls.

Although one may not condone the worker's flouting of the immigration laws, one cannot ignore the presence of 13 million undocumented people in the United States, most of whom are gainfully employed.

If they possess the means to purchase health insurance under the new system, encouraging their participation best serves the country's physical, mental and economic well-being.

Immigrant payments into such a system may even secure its financial future, much as economists have shown that legalization of the undocumented would create a windfall of Social Security payments, leaving our public retirement system financially viable well beyond its currently predicted demise.

Why did anyone even bother to go the the forum? Hall has already said he would vote for this plan REGARDLESS of what he heard from his constituents. Father Knows Best.

One more thing to ponder (from politico.com):

"Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) received a handwritten note Thursday from Joint Committee on Taxation Chief of Staff Tom Barthold confirming the penalty for failing to pay the up to $1,900 fee for not buying health insurance. Violators could be charged with a misdemeanor and could face up to a year in jail or a $25,000 penalty, Barthold wrote on JCT letterhead."

And I thought this was a FREE country!

The penalty/jail time mentioned in the above comment is for failure to pay federal taxes and is specified in the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (Section 7203), not in HR3200. HR3200 does not currently address the penalty not paying the fee. It is not yet clear what the penalty will be and how strictly it will be enforced. Wait for the facts before allowing yourself to be whipped into a frenzy by biased and misleading "news" sources like politico.com.

Well said, Carlotta.....I am amazed, almost to a comedic level, on how the opposition is willing to believe EVERYTHING they see on Fox News, Politico, internet e-mails, etc....Where's the accountability on these sources when they are proven wrong???....I just wish people would READ FOR THEMSELVES whats in the bill and make a judgment before taking the words of Rush Limbaugh as gospel....Those who hate the President for whatever reason (he's a democrat, he's not an american citizen, he's black, he wants to steal your money and give it to the poor, he hate white people, he will sit down with dictators, etc...) will never be won over and perhaps should just be left out of the debate.

From HR3200:

SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

??(a) TAX IMPOSED.?In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at
any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of?

??(1) the taxpayer?s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
??(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.

Yes, the IRS will enforce the tax imposed. And according to Tom Barthold of the Joint Committee on Taxation, if you fail to pay the tax you could be charged with a misdemeanor and could face up to a year in jail.

I'm not "whipped up in a frenzy" I just think I should be able to choose (like some 10 million Americans who can also afford to purchase health insurance) NOT to buy insurance.

Jim--

I agree we should all read the bill. Especially those who will be voting on it. Why did the Dems remove the amendment that would have required 72 hours to read the bill before the vote?

Mr. Scott, I apologize for mischaracterizing your mental state. However, I have to point out that the section of HR3200 that you excerpt describes the "tax" imposed for not buying health insurance (referred to as the "up to $1900 fee" in the Barthold note). The excerpt doesn't address the penalty for failure to pay the tax/fee; this penalty (jail time and a $25,000 penalty in the Barthold note) comes from the current tax code, not HR3200. The penalty for failure to pay the tax is addressed in a different section of HR3200, and that section refers to a sec. 6050X in the tax code. Sec 6050X, titled "Returns relating to health insurance," does not exist in the current tax code. My understanding is that this new section has yet to be written. So, again, we do not yet know what the penalty for failing to pay the penalty is going to be. You can read about this here: http://mountainsageblog.com/2009/09/26/buy-insurance-or-go-to-jail. Admittedly, it's a blog, but the guy doesn't seem to have an ax to grind, and he says he doesn't support mandates (so he's in your camp on that one).

Personal choice must be balanced against the general welfare, a notion enshrine in the preamble to our Constitution--promoting the general welfare is one of the main purposes of government. If your personal choice doesn't affect anyone else, fine. Perhaps you've chosen a lucrative career and saved wisely and will be able to pay for a catastrophe illness or expensive end-of-life care out of pocket. But what about people who choose low-paying careers or who don't save wisely. If they choose not to buy insurance or cannot afford it, what happens when they get sick? They go to the emergency room, and we all pay; or they suffer or even die because they can't afford care. Given our national personal savings rate, I think I'd be safe in guessing that the vast majority of people fall into the latter category.

For a person wealthy enough not to need insurance against catastrophic health care bills, perhaps the $1900 annual tax/fee for failing to buy it wouldn't be such a burden. It's cheaper than the current price of private health insurance.

Of course the new section of the tax code has yet to be written. So has the final health care bill. HR3200 is the House proposal. What Barthold has indicated is that the proposed penalty for refusing to pay the $1,900 tax for failure to participate in a qualified plan is up to a year in jail or a fine of $25,000.

My healthcare of choice--catastrophic coverage combined with a Health Savings Account--would disappear under HR3200. Additionally, there may be those who have a religious objection to carrying health insurance.

Wait a second there Mr. Scott....In an earlier comment you said some hand written note was "confirming" a so-called $1900 tax for failure to participate. But in your last comment you said the $1900 tax was "proposed".....So what is it? Is it "confirmed" or is it "proposed"???.....Again, I think the opposition really doesn't have a full understanding about this health care bill. They are just happy to say "No" to everything.

It's all a proposal right now. None of it is law. HR3200 is what the president has gotten behind, and in that proposal Tom Barthold CONFIRMED that the penalty could be up to a year in jail.

The Dems are the one saying NO in this debate. They have said NO to over 600 amendments offered by the GOP, including one that would have required 72 hours to actually read the bill before they vote on it.

John Hall has said NO to his constituents. He will vote FOR this boondoggle regardless of what his constituents think.

I'm one of Congressman Hall's constituents, and he certainly hasn't said no to me. It appears that he's saying yes to moving us closer to universal health coverage. We, as a country, ought to be embarrassed that we?re ranked 37th by the World Health Organization, behind such notable industrial powerhouses as Costa Rica and Columbia.

Saying no to those who have a vested interested in the status quo, isn?t supporting a boondoggle. The amendments proposed by the Republicans are clearly designed to delay passage of any meaningful legislation. Amendments such as the one proposed by the illustrious Sen. Ensign to replace the word fee with the word tax, or Orrin Hatch?s any state that starts with the letter ?U? should get tax relief on particularly expensive health care plans, are notable examples.

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.

There is, in fact, a religious exemption in the current form of the bill.

Interesting thread. We went from the term "illegal aliens" to "undocumented workers". I also prefer the later as they are after all human beings.

Since, our friends from the south get health care right now by swamping our emergency rooms I see it as a plus that they are offered to buy into our health care system. Last year I had an emergency room visit for a sprained achilles tendon. The cost of that visit was over $2500. Now if they had access to proper health care it would in reality bring down the cost of health care since they currently use the emergency rooms for everything and cannot be legally turned away.

I know there is a large segment of America who says just send them back where they came from but the numbers are so overwhelming as to make it near impossible. I'd also like to add that our friends from the south are overwhelmingly hard workers looking out for their families. The gangbangers and others arrested for felonies should be extradited back to their home country but not lumped in with the mostly hardworking populace here now. Just my opinion as I understand there are a myriad of opinions out there.

We should look at New Zealands health Care system. It is a two tier system. Maybe we could opt for something in that direction. Our U.S. Congress is beginning to become as dysfunctional as Albany. I still cannot believe they passed that "stimulus" bill without reading it,
I callrd, wrote and e-mailed John Hall with no reply. He will NOT get my vote. Once politicians get to big an ego to answer their constituents they don't get my vote. Assemblywoman Nancy Calhoun ALWAYS answers my queries. I respect that.I am partial to no party but am partial to the particular man or woman running for that particular seat.

Bill,

At 6'6" tall and 275 lbs I'd make an awful looking woman. You can disparage the "12 million illegal aliens" all you want as it's your right. I'll go along with undocumented workers.

"Soon we will be overrun with Mexicans" Wow! What an ignorant statement. Reminds me of when we had Irish need not apply or separate facilities for "whites" and "coloreds". I guess there will always be a meanness in this world. I'd love to recommend a Book to you. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown. It may open your heart a bit.

Patrick Welch

Cummings,

I'd rather have a Mexican as a neighbor then a Racist I can tell you that.

If you're not a Native American(and I can imagine you still call them injuns) then you're relatives were immigrants too. And don't hand me that breaking the law crap because with a wink and a nod from the Federal Government they were allowed to cross the border to pick the fruits and vegetables you eat, to wash you're dishes in the restaurants and to mow your lawns. So every time you stick your face into a plate of vegetables or gobble up some fruit know that you have YOUR FRIENDS from the south to thank for it.

Mr. Cummings,

Unless you are childless, you are as much a "baby maker" as any immigrant. Perhaps you also refer to yourself, your wife, your daughters, your sons, by that derogatory term? Or is it only unskilled, uneducated, non-white people who deserve your scorn? Bigotry and sexism are alive and well in the United States, I see. Makes me proud to be an American.

I think Cummings' comments speak for themselves.....You can NOT have a rational debate with someone who is angry, bitter, and shows his true colors about his racial prejustices..... This was supposed to be a Health Care debate, but got turned into a policial tv show style shout-fest beacause of the divisive words of Bill "If it's not White, it's not Right" Cummings.